Life Is So Much Easier When You Are an Immigrant

Reader Nancy P. says:

The American Dream is inherently easier to achieve for the immigrant with an education subsidized by the former country of residence.

It is profoundly painful to me to see how strong anti-immigrant sentiments are even in highly educated, good, progressive people. Easier, eh? Let me tell about how easy my subsidized life has been. My high school education was non-existent. I went to school with children of party apparatchiks. Grades were bought and sold, there was no teaching to speak of. I’m grievously ignorant about the most basic things and am still filling the lacunae in my knowledge.

My university education in Ukraine is irrelevant because I never used it. I started my BA in Canada in an entirely new field from scratch. Besides, the quality of that education was abysmally poor. I blogged about this at length and don’t want to repeat myself.

N. and I both got into debt, of course. He paid his down by wearing the same clothes for 10 years and never going out to a restaurant or a bar (never, not a single time, not once) during his undergrad studies and the first 4 years of his grad studies. I got into debt because I was taking care of my underage sister. I still haven’t paid it down. I don’t know who it is that subsidized us but they didn’t do a very good job, it seems.

Neither of us gets to speak our own language anywhere except at home. That, of course, makes our lives so much easier. We also have noticeable Russian accents; his is more noticeable than mine. We had to learn everything anew after we emigrated, everything. How to take a bus, how and where to buy food, how, when and where to pay rent, what a checkbook is and how it is used. God, I even had to learn how to use a library. I spent several months freezing to death in my apartment in New Haven because I had no flapping idea that the switch on the wall needed to be turned to turn on the heating. I’d never seen anything like that before, so how was I supposed to know? Roads are different, kitchen sinks are different, bath-tubs, beds, windows, everything is different. And you get to learn all of that as an adult. Oh, that is so easy, let me tell you.

Our last names are Slavic, which guarantees that our job applications end up in the trash can 90% of the time. My sister is a professional job recruiter, so I know this for a fact. What do people think when they see a Slavic name on a resume? A whore and a mail order bride. An alcoholic and a gangster. That’s how it works and that makes the lives of immigrants so much easier.

And, of course, as immigrants, we can’t just go and find a job. We have to wait for years and pay through the nose to get residence permits and work permits. Even a stupid job at MacDonald’s to tide you over is closed for an immigrant without a work permit. And that also simplifies things incredibly for immigrants.

I feel the pain of American people who suffered in the current economic crisis. But anybody who wants to have an opinion about the easy lives of immigrants will be well-served to acquire some basic information about the complete economic collapse that we experienced in Russia and Ukraine in the 1990ies. We had the kind of inflation where my mother would bring home her salary for 3 months, and on the next day, the very next day, you could buy 2 loaves of bread and nothing more with that money because of the inflation.

Yes, there is unemployment in the US today, and that sucks. However, in the FSU countries, everybody became unemployed when the state fell apart. The very country that used to give people those low-paying Soviet jobs was not in existence any more. And everybody had to look for employment and compete in the job market for the very first time in their lives. Scholars with decades of experience, teachers, doctors, engineers had to start traveling to Poland and Turkey to buy cheap rubbish and then sell it at the market-place. And this wasn’t something that happened to 9% of people or 16% of people. It happened to everybody. At once. Do I need to mention that there were no unemployment benefits, food stamps, credit cards, food banks, churches to offer assistance, or anything of the kind?

Yes, my students don’t have an easy time finding jobs while they go to school. When I was an undergrad in Ukraine in 1994-8, however, there was a law in place that forbade students to work. Police officers would drag students out of classrooms for the horrible crime of working. This is the environment in which I had to support myself and an unemployed husband when I was 19, 20, 21, 22.

Nancy P’s father benefited from the GI bill, and that’s great. My grandfather, though, was a veteran of World War II and he died in penury. He couldn’t feed his children, and my mother didn’t get a chance to finish high school because there was simply no money to support a non-working 15-year-old girl.

It’s great that people in the US are organizing, protesting, getting politically active. But why, on God’s green Earth, can’t it be done without making these egregiously hurtful statements about the supposedly easy lives of immigrants?

I wouldn’t say it if I weren’t provoked beyond all patience by this insanely offensive statement I quoted above, but now I will say it: if you were born and raised in the US, you have no place talking about hardship, poverty, and economic instability to a person from an FSU country.

I’m so insulted that, for the first time in 11 months, my blood pressure has gone up.

105 thoughts on “Life Is So Much Easier When You Are an Immigrant

  1. This reminds me of when people I knew complained about how easy Aboriginals and immigrants have in (North) America, because they can get better scholarships and funding packages in college, with one even claiming that all natives don’t pay taxes and get free college. I wanted to howl at them. If you’ve never been to a reservation/reserve, it’s hell on earth, with some not even having any running water or electricity, and an obscenely high rate of infant/child mortality and unemployment.
    The free college/no taxes thing is entirely bunk, the best scholarships for natives are from native-owned colleges, like Salish-Kootenai in Montana, and those aren’t exactly top-of-the-line universities which guarantee a job upon graduation or a chance at graduate school, and if you are a native who goes to a better school, there’s a lot of catch-up to play to fill holes in your education and a lot of pain and isolation from experiencing culture shock and racism.
    How this makes life “easy” is beyond me.

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    1. You know, people post comments telling me I’m fat, ugly and Jewish, and that just makes me laugh. But this kind of comment about easy lives of immigrants just hurts me physically.

      I think I need to go lie down right now because hypertension is not to be taken lightly.

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  2. While I agree that the ‘American Dream’ as we know it no longer exists, claiming that immigrants have it easy in higher education is plain absurd.

    I’d add a few more points:

    1) Funding from a lot of agencies come with string attached. Many times they can’t be used for non-resident tuition and fees, which makes up a bulk of student expenses. American grad students have no such problems.

    2) At least in my UC, your tuition and fees gets drastically reduced if you pass your candidacy exam. Since tuition and fees is 2-3 times higher for immigrants than it is for americans, many advisors ‘force’ topics on their students and get them advanced to candidacy as soon as possible. Many times the students don’t have a clear enough understanding of their topic, but now that the topic is official they have no choice. this creates huge problems in their research later.

    3) American students in my lab have funding coming out their asses. No problems with conference travel, hotel accommodations. Immigrant students rarely get such funding unless they’re actually presenting a paper.

    4) American grad students have the luxury of floating around the first 1-1.5 years of grad school, looking for things they’re interested in and potential advisors they might feel comfortable with. Foreign students are rarely afforded this luxury. They get assiged an advisor right in the beginning, and if they don’t like them or their research, well, tough luck. Foreign students are also expected to hit the ground running.

    5) In a bad economy your funding might get stopped for a quarter, or more. If you’re an american you can work an off campus job to pay the bills. Foreign students can’t. This creates a climate of uncertainty that can be devastating psychologically. It’s hard to spend money on a good meal when you know you may need that money 3 quarters from now to survive.

    Basically, foreign students have zero leverage in graduate school. One would have to be totally fucking clueless about how the system works if the think that immigrants have it easy.

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    1. Stringer Bell, well put.

      American students in my lab have funding coming out their asses.

      Totally true. In grad school in my field, the fellowship options for US citizens are tremendous.
      Even mediocre ones can land some type of fellowship. Foreigners have to be on RA’s (means they are connected to an advisor) from the get go. And if they lose the RA, they cannot get a gig at McDonald’s to pay the rent.

      Basically, foreign students have zero leverage in graduate school. One would have to be totally fucking clueless about how the system works if the think that immigrants have it easy.

      Exactly. Thank you.

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    2. Stringer Bell: all true. Even now that I’m a prof, I still can’t apply for many of the grants my colleagues can because I’m not a citizen ot permanent resident. And that’s fine, I get why that happens. But how does it make things easier?

      Back in grad school, many international students didn’t even go home on vacation because they knew they might have trouble getting back in and losing weeks of classes. N hasn’t been back to his country in 9 years because he might not be able to come back in.

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  3. We had the kind of inflation where my mother would bring home her salary for 3 months, and on the next day, the very next day, you could buy 2 loaves of bread and nothing more with that money because of the inflation.

    I am not from FSU, but my country has also gone through a long period with such inflation when I started college. I know exactly what you are talking about.

    Yes, I received a very good education for free. But being able to get that education was unbelievably selective; most people still don’t go to college at all (from my elementary school class, only 3 people finished college).

    And I hear you about being an immigrant in general. I moved to the US with two suitcases and $800 that I borrowed and had to pay back. No ability to qualify for student loans, nobody to fall back on. After a year, I had a husband and a kid, and we were living and paying for daycare on two student stipends. We were short on money every single month, and credit card debt kept rising. We let it rise because (a) we could not get any work outside of our research assistantships because our student status forbade it, (b) not being residents, we could not qualify for any type of reasonable student loan. The only way was for me to graduate quickly and land a real job (a faculty position) as soon as humanly possible so we could start paying back. It was a risky strategy but it was the only one that didn’t involve one of us moonlighting illegally because we simply didn’t have enough money. Now 7+ years after graduating I still carry some grad school credit card debt and so does my husband.

    I am in a STEM field — there are so many opportunities in my field for US citizens to qualify for all sorts of fellowships and scholarships that if you have half a brain you will get some serious financial assistance. Nothing like that is available to immigrants.

    I am not saying that there aren’t many people in the US who live in economic hardship, and history teaches us that whenever economic crises strike there is a tendency to blame the hardship on all “others” such as immigrants, who are in reality even more powerless. (Immigrants are easy to bash because like all “others” they are not fully human, not the same way the indigenous are, right?) Anyone who is not an immigrant should really shut up about telling immigrants what they are or how their lives are or how easy everything is. Our accents and our strange names are a constant reminder to us and apparently everyone around us that we are not really fully at home here.

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    1. Yes, but when immigrants want to critique Americans right to their faces and explain to them why they are fucked up and how they’ve fucked everything up it is perfectly fine, as we have learned here on this blog. And it is to be assumed that they know what they are talking about and Americans don’t no matter how short their stay has been.

      I worked in an animation studio headed by an academy award winner from a European country who would often pontificate about how young Americans wasted their opportunities blah blah. Truth was that by passing a test he was admitted to the best art school in his country and all his early films that made his reputation were automatically funded by the state. No system even close to this exists for American artists like myself. This is a terrible country to be an independent animator in, and his comments were actually cruel, and as an employee I had to listen silently to his insults. Yes, he suffered as an immigrant, but he was advantaged at the same time, leading to his academy award. I could tell many similar stories.

      There are about 6 billion different human stories out there. Why the need to generalize? No sooner are we defending immigrants than we are going on and on about how great it is for Americans and implying that they are spoiled whiners.

      And by the way, in the non-medical biological sciences there are zero fellowships for Americans with “half a brain”. TA support may be cut off after the 5th year for immigrants, which may be a blessing in disguise.

      It’s all simply a ‘grass is greener’ syndrome in my opinion.

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      1. Truth was that by passing a test he was admitted to the best art school in his country and all his early films that made his reputation were automatically funded by the state. No system even close to this exists for American artists like myself.

        I don’t think you realize how competitive these tests are. For instance, the state in which I live in is about the size of my home country. In the state university system where I teach, there are 13 campuses, and that’s not counting community colleges and private schools. And most states have more than one state-funded university system (Univ of State vs State Univ). In my home country, there was one university. If you wanted to study film, you had to be among the 10 people they admitted annually. There were people who would retake the admission test for many, many years and still never make it.
        The highly decorated artist from your story is thus truly one of the top people his whole country had to offer. How many art students in the US can say they are among top 10 in their generation in their state?

        The best and the brightest in the US indeed get a free ride and scholarships at top American universities. In my home country, they do too. Here’s the big difference: in much of Europe, if you are not up to snuff, you don’t get to go to the university at all. In the US, by comparison, as long as you are willing to pay for your education, there will be a school willing to take your money. Regardless of the fact that you will likely have no chance to ever make a living with your degree.

        I am not trying to downplay the suffering of impoverished Americans. But please don’t assume that leaving all of your friends and family forever to start essentially penniless, in a country with alien customs and expectations and people looking down on you because of how you look or talk and where many opportunities are unavailable to you because of your visa status, is a walk in the park just because you were among the best in your country and managed to get a state-subsidized education.

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        1. “in much of Europe, if you are not up to snuff, you don’t get to go to the university at all. In the US, by comparison, as long as you are willing to pay for your education, there will be a school willing to take your money. ”

          -Exactly. We all had grueling entrance exams into universities in our countries. Those exams come in a variety of subjects. And you need to beat not only the brilliant competitors but also those folks who paid bribes to get in.

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      2. “Yes, but when immigrants want to critique Americans right to their faces and explain to them why they are fucked up and how they’ve fucked everything up it is perfectly fine, as we have learned here on this blog.”

        -If you don’t see a difference between people discussing their own experiences and people drawing conclusions about realities they know nothing about, I don’t think I can help.

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      3. “I don’t think you realize how competitive these tests are.”

        I am not downplaying anything. he deserved it. You missedmy main point. Much more important was the fact that his first six films, which made his reputation, were fully bank-rolled by the government. He didn’t have to work a full-time job and beg borrow and steal for each film- an impossible task. That is why we were all working for him.

        “The best and the brightest in the US indeed get a free ride and scholarships at top American universities.”

        A first generation American from a working class home, I won a scholarship to one of the best art schools in the US. I had to move to New York so I still had to work and take out a loan to survive. Even after arrival at this top school I stood out as a star. Then I was essentially thrown out on the street, already in debt. I struggled to make my own films- an impossible task. The promotion, selling myself to get funding, trying to support myself, buy supplies…I ended up working for him-and listening to his insults.

        And where did I say anything about a “walk in the park”? Aren’t you capable of admitting situations can be complex?

        And really, I have traveled and lived in Europe, and “alien customs”? Just traveling around the US or moving in higher class circles is just as stressful.

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    2. Thank you for sharing, GMP! I know what you mean. I had to rush through my doctoral program all the while answering questions from clueless colleagues, “But why don’t you want to take an extra year to make your dissertation a lot better?” The fact that it wasn’t a matter of choice but of pressing necessity did not even occur to them.

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      1. That’s the Eastern attitude, all right. I cannot stand Easterners because they are entitled, supercilious, and self serving. And New Englanders are the worst Easterners, by far.

        People will say I am stereotyping, but then so do they, so I am throwing it back.

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        1. “That’s the Eastern attitude, all right. I cannot stand Easterners because they are entitled, supercilious, and self serving. And New Englanders are the worst Easterners, by far”

          -This attitude was so pervasive that I can’t even place it geographically. I think I shared before how colleagues kept asking me, “But why don’t you go traveling this summer. Don’t you like traveling?”

          Clueless.

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      2. These are all rich kids you are bitching about. The other 99% of Americans agree with you. And how is not understanding your situation “hatred” or “bashing”?

        By the way, those of us who are from the lower classes get the same clueless comments.

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        1. “These are all rich kids you are bitching about. The other 99% of Americans agree with you. And how is not understanding your situation “hatred” or “bashing”?”

          -As you must have noticed, this post was written in response to a specific comment left here by a reader. That reader is neither rich or a kid.

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  4. Maybe instead of merely bitching about how eduction is cheaper in other countries, they should petition the White House and do something about the abhorrent costs of University education in America.

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  5. What I find especially curious is that this isn’t the first time this happens. I’ve had at least two other VERY LIBERAL and PROGRESSIVE readers on the blog erupt in vicious anti-immigrant rants all of a sudden. Here is one example: https://clarissasblog.com/2010/03/17/pseudo-liberals-hatred-of-immigrants/

    This is something I find unexpected and it still confuses me. There is a deep-seated vein of anti-immigrant sentiments among the US progressives. Does anybody know why and when it started? For now, my only explanation is that maybe the progressives blame immigrants for the erosion of the union movement. Is that it?

    What am I not seeing?

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    1. Possibly, fatigue from being asked to help people process culture shock.

      I just had a huge argument with a friend’s husband, who is an immigrant. He says all the things I have heard many, many times before middle and upper class / white Hispanic new faculty and new graduate student says:

      – US has income inequality, unlike Sweden, why do we not complain about this *all* day long.
      – US is an imperial power, is an evil country, why do we not put this front and center in *every* conversation.
      – Rural Americans are not as cultured as middle to upper class Parisians.
      – Driving is awful and the fact that it is necessary here is an abomination.
      – US academia is mean, inhuman, soulless.
      – They don’t like certain colleagues and want allies to start a war.

      I get irritated with all of this because it is a litany I have been hearing for 40 years or more. I don’t disagree with all the points, but I just can’t get radically upset about each one every day, even though each new person seems to want that form of emotional support.

      The thing about this guy is, he is here by choice, is being supported by his wife, and has the opportunity to go to graduate school for free if he would like — and has a green card, so can work any job, doesn’t have to wait to be sponsored. Yet, all he wants to do is b****, and some of us have work to do and lives to lead.

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      1. “I get irritated with all of this because it is a litany I have been hearing for 40 years or more. I don’t disagree with all the points, but I just can’t get radically upset about each one every day, even though each new person seems to want that form of emotional support.”

        -I always tell people that I’m here in the US because I dislike my country and find this country the best ever for me. I never felt so at home anywhere as I do here. It was my choice to leave a very comfortable existence in my country and emigrate. But anti-immigrant statements like the one that gave rise to this post really bug me. Unless one is a Native American, this means they are a descendant of immigrants. And nothing is nastier than an immigrant dumping on a more recent immigrant and making a point of pride out of a very dubious achievement of having been here a bit longer.

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      2. “-I always tell people that I’m here in the US because I dislike my country and find this country the best ever for me.’

        Well you do criticize Americans also, and anyway you are ignoring the point that we are listening to insults all the time from the other direction even if you are not doing it yourself (most of the time).

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        1. “Well you do criticize Americans also”

          -I’m an equal opportunity criticizer. 🙂 Everybody gets their fair share. Of course, I could write posts about how everything is great, but people don’t want to read such posts. Did you see my post on my impressions from an American high school? I loved it but nobody cared. Now, if I’d blogged about how horrible it was, I have no doubt that I would have received a lot of passionate posts in agreement and the post would have been hugely popular.

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      3. “-I’m an equal opportunity criticizer.”

        You are missing the point- sometimes we want to complain but it is interpreted as “hate” and “bashing” by you. I think my complaints, even expressing exasperation occasionally, are valid, and not “immigrant bashing”. This is America, learn to take it like everyone else.

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        1. ‘I think my complaints, even expressing exasperation occasionally, are valid, and not “immigrant bashing”. This is America, learn to take it like everyone else.”

          -I will repeat this for the very last time in hopes that you will learn to pay attention to posts before responding to them. This post was written in response to a specific comment about the “great and subsidized system of education” in my country by a person who has never been to the country in question. Try to concentrate on this for a moment and I have no doubt that you will realize that expressing an opinion about a country that you never even visited is not the same as expressing an opinion about the country where you’ve lived for a decade and are still living.

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      4. “Try to concentrate on this for a moment and I have no doubt that you will realize that expressing an opinion about a country that you never even visited is not the same as expressing an opinion about the country where you’ve lived for a decade and are still living.”

        It takes a long time- a life time- to understand a country. You and GMP both obviously have a lot to learn. You didn’t grow up here. That isn’t surprising. It is normal. It is arrogant to go on and on to Americans about how they are fucked up, of course it is going to annoy people. You still seem to have little grasp on the corruption in American politics, for example. Like most immigrants, including those Z was describing, it all falls on the shoulders of Americans in your estimation. Constantly fielding these assertions is tedious. And always playing up your “penniless immigrant” stories as if we don’t have our own stories, or if we do they could never be as bad as an immigrant’s, is tedious also.

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        1. “It takes a long time- a life time- to understand a country. You and GMP both obviously have a lot to learn. ”

          -GMP and I have at least started. You and Nancy P. haven’t. Yet both of you rush to opine.

          ” It is arrogant to go on and on to Americans about how they are fucked up, of course it is going to annoy people.”

          -The only person who keeps saying this on this blog is you. I could ask for quotes from me about “fucked up Americans” but I know you will not be able to provide anything other than another list of your boring assumptions, so why even bother?

          ‘And always playing up your “penniless immigrant” stories as if we don’t have our own stories, or if we do they could never be as bad as an immigrant’s, is tedious also.”

          -Yes, I share my stories on my blog. Whose stories should I share? And how am I preventing you from starting your own blog and sharing your stories there? Or are you blaming me for not publishing posts about your life?

          This is just getting too bizarre.

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      5. “-GMP and I have at least started. You and Nancy P. haven’t. Yet both of you rush to opine. ”

        Opine about what? I have not said one thing that wasn’t my experience. You have no sympathy for *my* struggles, or the insults I suffered. I guess Americans only suffer in the abstract, and even then it can’t possibly be at the hands of immigrants.

        GMP claims Americans with “half a brain” have fellowship funding coming out of their asses (not true except perhaps in her sub-field, though I doubt it), and you blame “Americans” and their “forgetting to exercise their consumer rights” for the food supply in this country, and and neither of you will admit when you are wrong.

        What have I opined that wasn’t true?

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        1. “Opine about what? I have not said one thing that wasn’t my experience. ”

          -My country, the quality of education there, what it meant to be from “an academic family” there, etc.

          ‘ You have no sympathy for *my* struggles, or the insults I suffered.”

          – Once again, I ask for a direct quote from me where I say “I have no sympathy for the insults Isabel suffered”. If you can’t provide it, I demand an apology.

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    2. I so agree!

      I had a roommate in grad school who was extremely liberal, extremely well-traveled, extremely well-educated. She had family in a FSU country, who had moved to the US, so its not like she had no contact with immigrants. But bring up the subject of immigrants taking away jobs from Americans — and boy! Out came her true colors! You couldn’t tell her apart from a tea-partier ranting against the illegals.

      Speaking about immigration, I find that the Republican party is quite friendly towards legal immigration, perhaps because Big Business is. All their ranting against illegal immigration is mostly just thinly-veiled racism.

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      1. “Speaking about immigration, I find that the Republican party is quite friendly towards legal immigration”

        -You know, I think you are right. I can’t remember a single anti-immigrant speech directed at me by conservatives. It’s the progressives who keep shocking me with this attitude.

        Does anybody have an explanation for that?

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  6. bloggerclarissa :
    -This attitude was so pervasive that I can’t even place it geographically. I think I shared before how colleagues kept asking me, “But why don’t you go traveling this summer. Don’t you like traveling?”
    Clueless.

    Except for an eighth-grade trip to Washington DC, and a sixth-grade trip to either Toronto or Cleveland (and for some people, not even that), not many people from my hometown have even been out of the state by the time they’re seniors in high school. There’s nothing wrong with not traveling, for whatever reason. My friend refused an in-state trip because she was holding three jobs at the time and didn’t want to miss a day of work. And my family won’t be going anywhere for another six to eight years or so, with the exception of a weekend in Canada.

    Which is why I’m confused as to why anyone would even think to ask a question like that. One of my friends at school is going to the Dominican Republic for the second time. But she’s never asked me why I’m not going anywhere but home this summer. The reasons behind not traveling shouldn’t matter; it doesn’t mean that you don’t like it.

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    1. “Which is why I’m confused as to why anyone would even think to ask a question like that.”

      -I went to grad school with hugely rich people who had trust funds and considered regular vacations in Europe (at least a couple of times a year) a normal part of everybody’s existence.

      ‘My friend refused an in-state trip because she was holding three jobs at the time and didn’t want to miss a day of work. And my family won’t be going anywhere for another six to eight years or so, with the exception of a weekend in Canada.”

      -I would have been much happier if I’d gone to grad school with this kind of people.

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  7. When I went back to nursing school at age 40 (during a difficult divorce in which I found out my exhusband had signed me up for credit cards and charged them to the max, I lost my home, and had to take out a VPO) while also working full time and raising two children, I felt incredibly stressed.

    Every penny was important; I couldn’t get loans for school, but with that degree I could double my take home pay. I took part in clinical trials as a “normal control”. I didn’t quality for any governmental help because my job paid $12/hour. Our diet consisted mostly of beans and macaroni (or, no kidding, food I scrounged from the trash at work — the residents and MDs used to get catered lunches from pharma companies, and most of it was untouched but thrown away). It was a constant struggle to have enough gas in the car. I sold my jewelry on Ebay for extra money. Our one “luxury” was that we continued our subscription for the daily newspaper (the Sunday coupons mostly made up for the price of the newspaper). Any time free food was advertised on the weekends (at grand openings or car dealerships), the kids and I went. When a friend I’d lost touch with randomly sent me $100 after hearing about my divorce (she hoped I would treat myself to a day at a spa), I cried with joy; that was money for food for a couple of months.

    Then I was asked to take part in a medical mission to the Mexican countryside with some of the nursing school staff and students (unlike everyone else in the group, I spoke a little Spanish, so I didn’t have to pay for the trip — they needed my little talent).

    After arriving, I felt ashamed for ever having felt poor.

    The clinic that we worked in for two weeks had a doctor who was there 4 days a month. There was little in the way of medical equipment (an ancient EKG which would allow the capturing of one lead at a time, a centrifuge and autoclave which probably dated from the 60s). Each of us brought two suitcases filled with drugs, hygiene and medical supplies (we were allowed a backpack each for our own clothing).

    The people we helped lived in dirt-floored houses without windows, built from native clay bricks they’d made themselves. Diabetes was rampant, there was little money for medications. No equipment for disabled people, who had to crawl on the ground since there were no smooth paths for wheelchairs. Few women had ever had a Pap smear (we did them for hundreds of women). We did presentations (with my crappy translations — but my audience would laugh and gently correct my mistakes — they were so friendly) on keeping teeth clean, basic hygiene, the importance of a vegetable garden, warning signs for diabetes, heart disease, etc. They had no trash pick up; either it was burned or just thrown on the ground. Few people had electricity and water had to be bought in huge bottles or caught during rainstorms, so bathing was also not a high priority.

    The only available employment was at a tortilla factory, with long hours, little pay, and few openings. Most people had a couple of chickens and a garden to try and make ends meet. On our next to last day, some of these people sacrificed a chicken and some of their vegetables to thank us with a nice dinner.

    I understand why people come to countries like the US, and I wish we would make it easier for them. People here who think immigrants have it easy don’t have a clue as to what they are talking about. We have so much here, and I think many of us make assumptions that that’s true everywhere. It’s not.

    Sorry about the length.

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    1. This is obviously not the case with every immigrant. Anyway, Clarissa lived a life of luxury including diamonds and furs before she moved here (that she earned all by herself) as she has shared many times.

      “We have so much here, and I think many of us make assumptions that that’s true everywhere. It’s not.”

      And some immigrants make assumptions about the US that are false also. That every talented person has the opportunity to become rich and famous here, for example, and it’s their own fault if they don’t.

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      1. “Clarissa lived a life of luxury including diamonds and furs before she moved here (that she earned all by herself) as she has shared many times”

        – I never owned a diamond in my life. 🙂 And everybody wears fur-coats in my country. It’s the climate.

        “That every talented person has the opportunity to become rich and famous here, for example, and it’s their own fault if they don’t.”

        -Maybe you should discuss these ideas with people who expressed them.

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      2. “That every talented person has the opportunity to become rich and famous here, for example, and it’s their own fault if they don’t”

        No sane immigrant makes that assumption — that’s the prerogative of your very own Republican party!

        But seriously, compared to how social mobility is in some countries, a vast number of talented people do make it in the US. In many other countries where most immigrants come from, you have to be really well-connected to make it, anywhere and everywhere. Unless you are filthy rich, you can’t even dream of becoming a film-maker.

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      3. Well, your story keeps changing. I am not imagining that I read that. It was in a post where you then lost it all, became a poor student and were much happier than when you had all those luxuries. You also have a PhD father and traveled with him when you were young, another advantage over most Americans, yet you often talk about being a “penniless immigrant” and playing that up. Like I said, us Americans are dealing with a lot of crap also and life isn’t always a walk in the park here either.

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        1. I traveled within my country with my father when I was 10. This was long before I became a penniless immigrant. 🙂 Like 12 years before. 🙂 🙂

          Isabel, you never pay attention, and that’s a huge problem.

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      4. It is the case with many, that they come here with nothing more than a suitcase of personal items, if that. How do you know who did, unless you know them really well?

        Most people will shine up their truth to make it look less pitiful. Few people were really aware of the struggles I had…in my case, I did not want to share only to have people say, “well, you should have done x.” It was too late for “should have”; I didn’t need someone’s sanctimonious observations. It was difficult enough as it was.

        In the neighborhood I live in now, we have a large number of Vietnamese “boat people”. Many had college degrees and a good lifestyle in their own country before everything went to heck. When they came here had to work as janitors or other low level jobs, saved enough to open a little restaurant (in which the entire family worked), and then scrimped to send their children to university. Would you have kept them out because once upon a time, they had money?

        I’ve yet to have seen an immigrant who looks down on people who already live here.

        I myself am willing to say that many people here waste their opportunities, and it wouldn’t matter for those people if they have competition from immigrants or not.

        In fact, if you are not Native American, then you come from a family of immigrants, who displaced the people who really were meant to live here. Who are you to close the door now?

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        1. “Would you have kept them out because once upon a time, they had money?”

          – Another thing that people fail to realize is that “money” does not mean the same thing here and in other countries. When I sold my apartment and everything I had in Ukraine before emigrating, the money was enough to pay for airplane tickets to Canada and the first couple of months of living in Montreal. And that was it.

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      5. “Isabel, you never pay attention, and that’s a huge problem.”

        Oh, I’m paying attention. The fact that you are from an academic family and have traveled gives you cultural capital, which is a great advantage, especially for a future academic. Being an immigrant is a disadvantage. Some Americans travel to Europe twice a year. Some cannot even imagine doing such a thing. Life is complicated.

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        1. “Oh, I’m paying attention. The fact that you are from an academic family and have traveled gives you cultural capital, which is a great advantage, especially for a future academic.”

          -It bores me to respond to people who project their cultural stereotypes onto completely different cultures. Are you aware that an academic in the USSR had a much lower salary and a much lower social position than a factory worker?

          And a trip to Sochi at the age of 10 gave me “cultural capital’? That’s the joke of the week.

          “Life is complicated.”

          -Hear, hear. It is especially complicated for those who believe their reality is the only one in existence. You remind me a bit of a student of mine who asked me how we celebrate Thanksgiving in my country.

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      6. “Unless you are filthy rich, you can’t even dream of becoming a film-maker.”

        And your examples of poor people becoming successful American independent filmmakers? I’m dying to hear it.

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      7. “-It bores me to respond to people who project their cultural stereotypes onto completely different cultures. Are you aware that an academic in the USSR had a much lower salary and a much lower social position than a factory worker? ”

        Cultural capital has nothing to do with money.

        Really Clarissa, if it makes you happy I will think of you as a pathetic, ignorant pauper when you arrived on these shores. But of course then you will get offended, as when someone wrote a blog post implying that Ukranian women turn to porn for the money. Suddenly women in the Ukraine has plenty of money- in fact they are better off than American women!

        The truth is no one likes to be stereotyped, and to be confronted with others’ stereotypes. Why should Americans?

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        1. “Really Clarissa, if it makes you happy I will think of you as a pathetic, ignorant pauper when you arrived on these shores.”

          -I arrived at the Toronto airport, not at “these shores”. 🙂 But the statement about me being an ignorant pauper at that time is spot on. Finally, you are getting it.

          ‘But of course then you will get offended, as when someone wrote a blog post implying that Ukranian women turn to porn for the money. Suddenly women in the Ukraine has plenty of money- in fact they are better off than American women!”

          – I know you are not dense. So you must be just faking it. Once again: I became a pauper because I needed to sell everything I had to pay for immigration. Before that, I was very well-off by Ukrainian standards. In Ukraine at that time, my great-grandmother’s apartment, for example, sold for $2,500. Ukrainian money and possessions were much cheaper than US money and possessions.

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      8. “You remind me a bit of a student of mine who asked me how we celebrate Thanksgiving in my country.”

        I said nothing in this thread that would cause any sane person to make this *incredibly offensive* assumption.

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        1. Oh yes you did. That thing about my father an academic and my trip to Sochi as giving me “cultural capital” to advance in the US was kind of more ridiculous than the student’s question.

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      9. “Oh yes you did. That thing about my father an academic and my trip to Sochi as giving me “cultural capital” to advance in the US was kind of more ridiculous than the student’s question.”

        Cultural capital is very real. Are you saying being from an academic family hasn’t been an advantage for you? That is ludicrous. It has nothing to do with money, or status in the Ukraine. I think after this conversation, I have less sympathy for European immigrants than ever. I mean, I moved across the country with nothing also. Do you think we all have trust funds?

        Putting forth the idea that you are indistinguishable from an illiterate Mexican field worker as far as being an immigrant in this country is offensive and pathetic on your part.

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        1. When exactly did I compare myself to any Mexican person, let alone ‘an illiterate Mexican field worker”? I want an exact quote from me where I did that or an apology.

          “Are you saying being from an academic family hasn’t been an advantage for you?”

          -Where? In Ukraine? It was a huge disadvantage. In Canada? In the US? Nobody cares about Soviet scholars in these countries. As well they shouldn’t. If you were more specific about what kind of advantage you are referring to, it would be easier for me to respond.

          ‘ I mean, I moved across the country with nothing also.”

          -As a person who moved across one country several times and from one country to another twice, I can tell you that there is no comparison. None. The latter is immeasurably harder.

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      10. “-Where? In Ukraine? It was a huge disadvantage. In Canada? In the US? Nobody cares about Soviet scholars in these countries. As well they shouldn’t. If you were more specific about what kind of advantage you are referring to, it would be easier for me to respond.”

        I don’t mean i terms of opening doors, or status; I mean in terms of imagining and forging a career for yourself. Your father forged a path for you, in many ways, whether he was directly involved in your education and career or not. And you have something in common with him. You are following your family’s culture.

        A few possible examples: you knew, and actually regularly talked to, people with advanced degrees your whole life. You knew academia existed and had at least a vague idea of what went on there. You could picture yourself as an academic and probably had at least an idea of what becoming one entailed. You probably even knew, or had the comfort level and the wherewithal to find out, that graduate school is free, and so could plan accordingly.

        Even if you didn’t travel, your father traveled, and probably knew people from other countries and even hosted them. Perhaps he related some of his experiences to you, or brought back art or other souvenirs, or had a lot of interesting books around the house. These are just a few possible examples. Some may not apply to you, and many, many more could be listed; cultural capital is an actual concept you could probably find a lot about by googling if you are interested.

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        1. “I don’t mean i terms of opening doors, or status; I mean in terms of imagining and forging a career for yourself. ”

          -This way we are going to get to where I’m super fortunate that I inherited good genes. It’s true, of course, but has nothing to do with immigration.

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        2. “You probably even knew, or had the comfort level and the wherewithal to find out, that graduate school is free, and so could plan accordingly”

          -In Ukraine, I knew that the grad school in the US was free?? You haven’t been reading this blog at all, have you? 🙂 I didn’t even know that you could take books out of the library for free.

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  8. And some immigrants make assumptions about the US that are false also. That every talented person has the opportunity to become rich and famous here, for example, and it’s their own fault if they don’t.

    You are confusing immigrants with your very American Republican party! No sane immigrant would make such an assumption — they usually know through bitter experience what social mobility means.

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    1. “You are confusing immigrants with your very American Republican party! No sane immigrant would make such an assumption”

      Those were quotes from actual people.

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  9. Well, re:

    “I always tell people that I’m here in the US because I dislike my country and find this country the best ever for me. I never felt so at home anywhere as I do here. It was my choice to leave a very comfortable existence in my country and emigrate. But anti-immigrant statements like the one that gave rise to this post really bug me. Unless one is a Native American, this means they are a descendant of immigrants. And nothing is nastier than an immigrant dumping on a more recent immigrant and making a point of pride out of a very dubious achievement of having been here a bit longer.”

    I think what NancyP meant, really, was to disagree with Rowling’s idealization of the hard working immigrants of times past and of that as the true “America”. All immigrants except I guess the super rich worked hard and still do, but only some are wildly successful, and not being isn’t necessarily a reflection on character.

    It wasn’t the time to split hairs, though, since mostly it was really time to say Yay N., it worked out really well at last! 🙂

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    1. ‘All immigrants except I guess the super rich worked hard and still do, but only some are wildly successful, and not being isn’t necessarily a reflection on character”

      -Does it or does it not say in the quote that the American dream is “inherently easier to achieve” for immigrants? How can I fail to be incensed by that?

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      1. It was, immigrants with an education vs. without. I think the point was against the attainability of all aspects of the American Dream for all: not all immigrants attain it, just as not all Americans don’t, and not attaining it doesn’t necessarily mean lack of hard work.

        It’s still off topic really since, why not just celebrate N.’s
        job for a minute, it’s a big deal! But I think she was arguing against some of the implications of Rowling’s comment.

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  10. “The only available employment was at a tortilla factory, with long hours, little pay, and few openings. Most people had a couple of chickens and a garden to try and make ends meet. On our next to last day, some of these people sacrificed a chicken and some of their vegetables to thank us with a nice dinner.

    I understand why people come to countries like the US…We have so much here, and I think many of us make assumptions that that’s true everywhere.”

    Bearing in mind that Mexico is a “rich country” also. In fact the richest person in the world is Mexican. There sure is a lot of cartoon, kindergarten style story-telling and moralizing going on around here.

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    1. Isabel, there are a few very rich Mexican people. There are far, far more people in Mexico who have exactly what described and saw with my own eyes.

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      1. Thanks for another kindergarten lesson. I wonder why it is that struggling Americans are always automatically compared to people living in squalor in other countries and told they are rich in comparison and should stop complaining. And why it is always assumed that they have no idea that that is the case (like this commenter didn’t, apparently).
        And why people who brag about their countries’ socialist programs get defensive when it is suggested that they may have benefited from them. It is surely tough being an immigrant, in numerous ways, but maybe having a lifetime of enjoying all the benefits we are told daily by these same people that we should be fighting for confers to that adult some small compensatory advantage? Why is that such a crazy idea, or an example of “hate” or “immigrant bashing”?

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        1. “And why people who brag about their countries’ socialist programs get defensive when it is suggested that they may have benefited from them. I”

          -And who are those people, exactly? I surely hope you don’t mean me because my hatred for the Soviet Union and every one of its institutions is proverbial.

          ‘maybe having a lifetime of enjoying all the benefits we are told daily by these same people that we should be fighting for ”

          -What benefits? Who tells you such things? It’s kind of strange that you direct these statements not to the people who say such stuff to you but to me and to my blog.

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  11. bloggerclarissa :
    “Speaking about immigration, I find that the Republican party is quite friendly towards legal immigration”
    -You know, I think you are right. I can’t remember a single anti-immigrant speech directed at me by conservatives. It’s the progressives who keep shocking me with this attitude.
    Does anybody have an explanation for that?

    Because it’s good for business, and they are very pro business, but their anti-immigrant sentiments do end up hurting a lot of legal immigrants, see, for example, that draconian anti-immigration law in Alabama which resulted in two separate auto factory managers, one German and one Japanese, both with work visas, being incarcerated and interrogated for not having their passports with them when they got pulled over by the police.

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  12. bloggerclarissa :

    -As a person who moved across one country several times and from one country to another twice, I can tell you that there is no comparison. None. The latter is immeasurably harder.

    @Isabel, as another person who moved to the US from a third-world country, and who moved around three times across the US and once to Europe, I strongly second that. Your statement that moving to a different country is the same as moving cross-country within the US shows how clueless you are about immigration.

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    1. I didn’t make a statement that it was “the same”. I did say that I have done both, so spare me your condescension.

      Really, why is everyone so franctic to make a “comparison”?

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    2. In my field, though, there are a lot of alleged immigrants who aren’t really full on immigrants, but who are more like expats.

      They have green cards and US jobs but their main house is in their home country, which is also where they do their fieldwork and where they spend 4 months / year.

      They didn’t really move to US in the way others do – they got brought by their dissertation directors, who take care of them while here. As non citizens there aren’t 100% of the US funding sources for them, but as green card holders there are a lot, plus they have the funding sources from their countries.

      When *these* people tell me “but you are in your home” when my home is 2500 miles and a couple of cultures away, and theirs is actually a shorter flight, I kind of don’t take them seriously.

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  13. @Isabel: “GMP claims Americans with “half a brain” have fellowship funding coming out of their asses (not true except perhaps in her sub-field, though I doubt it), ”

    The ass quote is not mine at all. I did use term “half a brain.” Please don’t misappropriate quotes or “mix and match” from different people.

    This is what I said above and I stand by it: “In grad school in my field, the fellowship options for US citizens are tremendous. Even mediocre ones can land some type of fellowship.”

    Here is an example. An American citizen undergrad who worked with my group for a year got an NSF graduate fellowship and went on to grad school to a private university (a physical science field with strong ties to industry). He was an OK student, but he was worse in terms of technical skills than all of my international students when the finished undergrad/started grad school. In fact, an international student with the same test scores and GPA as this kid would only be admitted to Podunk U; I know I would not give him the time of day if he were international and had such scores/GPA. However, since he is a US citizen, he gets to go to a top school with an NSF fellowship.

    Whether you like it or not, opportunities for US citizens in the US are greater than for immigrants. And that’s perfectly fine, the US should support its own citizens first and foremost.

    In her post, Clarissa uses her own experience to counter the statement that immigrants have it so easy. In my understanding, personal stories of penniless immigrants are perfectly appropriate in this thread.

    Other people’s hardship does not take away from your own hardship. However, if you are tired of hearing about penniless immigrants and If you want to engage in a Misery Olympics and always come out on top as the one who has suffered the most of all, then don’t be surprised by the less than warm reception in this thread.

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    1. And to second GMP, the phenomenon that she mentions is true in my subfield of engineering as well. When I went to grad-school, all the American students, even very mediocre ones, had NSF fellowships; all international students either had to TA from day one, or had to be attached to an advisor.

      Now that I am on the other side of things, I can tell you with authority that the bar for admitting domestic graduate students in US schools is also much lower than the bar for international students, because domestic students are so much more easy to fund.

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      1. “Now that I am on the other side of things, I can tell you with authority that the bar for admitting domestic graduate students in US schools is also much lower than the bar for international students, because domestic students are so much more easy to fund.”

        -It’s the same after you graduate. On many of the job announcements in my field, there was a question, “Do you have the right to legally work in the US?” It costs money to sponsor an employee for a work visa, and many universities don’t want the hassle and the expense.

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      2. This is NOT true in the biological sciences.

        very few people have fellowships, and those that do tend to be “golden boys/girls” from Ivy league schools who had all the advantages and could build stellar applications. Everyone in my lab works every semester except one foreign student who has a fellowship. She has to work in her country afterwards as part of the deal. See? Your experience is far from universal and things rarely fall out as neatly as everyone seems to want them to.

        Overall, in most cases, it is disadvantageous to be an immigrant no doubt, but surely that is not a big surprise. It’s just part of the deal. My parents were non-english speaking blue collar immigrants. Even as a first generation American and the first to college & first to grad school I deal with a lot of invisible-to-others issues and life-long struggles, including plenty of culture shock.

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        1. ‘Overall, in most cases, it is disadvantageous to be an immigrant no doubt, but surely that is not a big surprise. It’s just part of the deal.”

          -Then we don’t disagree about anything in this topic.

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    2. Wow, way to not respond to any of the points in my comment. My whole point was that sometimes what NancyP said is true sometimes at least in terms of specifics; sometimes people’s situations confer advantages. In terms of my employer, he absolutely gained by having his art nurtured, yet he couldn’t see that. In other words, I had to put up with the same thing Clarissa does. You seem to believe that this could never happen; that immigrants could never be so clueless. Hey, people are people.

      I am not alleging that “it is always easier” for immigrants or some similar inanity – I am saying that it is not *always* easier for Americans, and that immigrants can be clueless also. For example they can be blind to the differences in the lives of Americans and not notice that I am struggling myself as a lower class first generation American.

      I don’t know what to think about all the mediocre people with half a brain that make it in to your graduate program. Are they the best and the brightest of the US – why are so many mediocre? I thought you were at a top school. How do you suppose this particular population ends up in your program? Where are they from? Are they regular kids who went to school on scholarship?

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      1. And by the way, I don’t mean to imply that I brought the subject up or anything – he was the one in the case who was making the comments about others having it so much easier. I only found out about his situation after becoming naturally curious about how he had managed to make so many impressive short films independently; and he casually explained that they were automatically funded, a situation that seemed incredible to me.

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  14. When I started uni I found out how bad it is to be an immigrant even though I consider myself to be educationally and racially privileged. I’m a German citizen living as a permanent resident in Australia. All through high school I was told that like everyone else, when it came to studying I would be able to get a government loan to pay my course fees. When it came around, they told me all of a sudden I had to pay all mine upfront (about $6,000 a year) because I wasn’t born here. Luckily I was able to get citizenship quite quickly, albeit expensively. Otherwise I wouldn’t have been able to afford studying, as I had to live away from home and my parents were just getting by as it was.

    It just goes to show how even immigrants that have lived somewhere all their lives have setbacks that citizens of a country never would have thought of. I can’t even imagine how much harder it would have been if I wasn’t white, or if I had been born in a third-world country, or had a disability like my recently-emigrated stepfather. This sort of thing makes my blood boil.

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  15. My situation as an immigrant has obviously been very different from many, due to what I symbolize. However, one of most incredible absurdities I’ve run into is also a strong feature of those who interpret identity symbolically. They have weird notions about the distribution of “pity” and about whom it is morally right or wrong to distribute their pity towards.

    So, if you confront them with something rather devastating — let us say you announce, “My leg was torn off my a dragon and I’m now bleeding to death!” — they will weigh up whether this is a genuine case demanding a demonstration of their pity or whether it is otherwise.

    If it is otherwise, then they will show extreme disdain, insinuating that your fate of having your leg demolished by a dragon was an absolutely necessary state of affairs, given your identity.

    All pity for people being eaten by dragons with be withheld. Such pity is to be reserved for people being eaten by pterodactyls only. Also, the people who are getting eaten by pterodactyls have to be well-meaning and emaciated to deserve any kind of respect — otherwise, they too deserve what was coming to them.

    This kind of an audience considers it very important that nobody should wring “pity” out of them as an expression of automatic human solidarity. That would make them less important in their own eyes as well as making meaningless their capacity to withhold their pity.

    They mistakenly believe that people being eaten alive by dragons crave their pity more than anything else in this world.

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  16. Isabel #27: “It takes a long time- a life time- to understand a country.”

    Yes. I don’t understand US yet and I think that’s what the US historians are doing: trying to understand it.

    I had a bad case of culture shock once and I think I was a very irritating person when I had it. Shocked at what was going on in that city/country – not that the natives weren’t, but they already knew and just couldn’t lacerate themselves about it 24/7 and still function.

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  17. I am not commenting on the existence of difficulties for immigrants. I am commenting on the cost of college. Perhaps I am wrong in assuming that US public colleges currently have higher tuition (relative to the cost of living) than similar colleges in many other countries. Perhaps it is offensive as well as incorrect to think that highly talented prospective college students without financial assets might be more able to afford college in some other countries than in the USA. Perhaps I am deluded in my beliefs that education is a common good and that education ought to be available to the best candidates regardless of their current financial status.

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    1. Public universities in the countries with which I am most familiar are free or close to it, but to get into the good ones you have to be very well off — very good private high school, very good preparatory course for the entrance exam, and so on. Also cost of living relative to typical income is comparatively low in US. So, it really depends. You have to really look at what actual cost and realistic accessibility is, etc. Just because there are universities which are free does not mean, etc.

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      1. “Also cost of living relative to typical income is comparatively low in US. ”

        What?? Most people pay 1/3 to 1/2 of their income on housing alone (sometimes more). I have never heard of a European country with a higher educational system that was as elitist and expensive as the US. I am familiar with the details of half a dozen European countries, so I am really curious to hear of the cases where it is as elitist and expensive as the US.

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  18. *unrelated to post*

    Clarissa, I just wanted to say that I really admire your approach to people who disagree with you. Often, people seem to make assumptions about what you ‘imply’ instead of addressing your real, explicit points. These assumptions seem to eventually evolve into downright manipulation of your points and putting words in your mouth.

    I admire that you never let that go. After following your blog and realizing how many, many people (often unknowingly) make false assumptions, I’ve become much better at arguing and understanding why so often arguments just feel as if both parties are talking past one another.

    Thank you!

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  19. As an immigrant in the US, I would like to add that I find the insinuation that, immigrants have an easier life, to be preposterous. While it is true that most of my college education (three years of Bachelors degree) was quite inexpensive, but the important point to note here would be that the admission process was highly selective. Another crucial point is that I went to a very expensive private high school. The tuition costs were prohibitively high. It is worthwhile to mention that there are no state funded schools that one could go to. Our state funded schools lack infrastructure and the quality of education is appalling. Also, all state funded schools teach even basic sciences in regional languages making it impossible for anyone to pursue higher education in colleges where the medium of instruction is English. I thank my parents for sending my brother and I to schools where we were taught in English even though they had to pay through their nose. The total cost of basic education (from primary to high school — a total of 12 years) was much more than our college expenses. Let me not even start talking about my Masters education in a school that is among the top most in my country and even after successfully passing the entrance examination, the costs of housing the meals were still very high.

    Btw, Clarissa, I love your blog. But this is the first time I am commenting because this issue is so close to my heart.

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  20. It’s strange you suggest that the the slavic names are thrown in the trash bin, although the mail-order bride comment is appropriate.

    In my profession – engineering – we generally interview all “foreign” candidates on the basis that they’ve probably sacrificed a lot just to sit for the interview. The consistent worry is whether langauge and culture will be a barrier. In the case of eastern Europeans, that worry is generally confined to language. Given time, most foreign engineers adapt to both language and culture.

    Another worry is over-education – which applies to American PhD’s as well. Have you heard the expression (mirroring the degree progression), Bull Shit, More Shit, Piled higher and Deeper? Many engineering firms avoid PhD holders because of over-specialization.

    That said, my brother travelled to Kiev on a whim one summer and met a girl he’s considering marrying. He’s met her parents, she’s met his, and I may have to spring for tickets back to Ukraine this summer.

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    1. “It’s strange you suggest that the the slavic names are thrown in the trash bin”

      -I don’t suggest anything. My sister works in the field of professional recruitment, so I unfortunately know this for a fact. 😦

      “Given time, most foreign engineers adapt to both language and culture.”

      -I can’t speak for people from other countries, but Russian-speaking immigrants, as a rule, fail to integrate at all even after decades.

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      1. It’s still strange to me, even anecdotally, that any employment recruiter would sort by ethnicity. Besides the legal problems, technical professionals can’t afford to hire on the basis of anything but competence; our clients and our businesses suffer when favoritism is applied. If a candidate can construct the appropriate differential equation for fluid flow out of a convex funnel, I don’t care if that candidate’s mother was a bitch – literally.

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        1. “It’s still strange to me, even anecdotally, that any employment recruiter would sort by ethnicity”

          -There is also rampant racism, sexism, homophobia, and ageism in recruitment process.

          ” I don’t care if that candidate’s mother was a bitch – literally”

          – That’s great. Many people are not as enlightened, though. My sister left a huge company she worked for and started her own business in huge part because she couldn’t deal with the “This candidate is too black / too foreign / has a funny name / has an ass that is too big or too small / is too gay”, etc.

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      2. Having a Slavic name is hardly a tip-off that a candidate is a recent immigrant in the first place – and what field is your sister recruiting for and why are they thrown in the trash bin? By the way the artists and animators that I worked with in my previous career were mostly from Slavic countries. They were always well-trained, reliable, extremely disciplined, and incredible artists, partly because of their work ethic I suspect.

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        1. “Having a Slavic name is hardly a tip-off that a candidate is a recent immigrant in the first place”

          -Nobody cares. Employers just say, “His last name sounds like he is not from here” and it matters nothing to them that the candidate’s family has lived in this same city for 3 generations.

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  21. Isabel :
    “Also cost of living relative to typical income is comparatively low in US. ”
    What?? Most people pay 1/3 to 1/2 of their income on housing alone (sometimes more). I have never heard of a European country with a higher educational system that was as elitist and expensive as the US. I am familiar with the details of half a dozen European countries, so I am really curious to hear of the cases where it is as elitist and expensive as the US.

    Europe has grants, financial aid, etc. for students, and student housing at student prices and things like this.

    Much of rest of world is a lot harder. Minimum wage in Mexico, for example, is something like 40 cents an hour and rent on an apt is not that much cheaper than US.

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  22. [giving up on getting this comment to appear in the right place]

    “-In Ukraine, I knew that the grad school in the US was free?? You haven’t been reading this blog at all, have you? 🙂 I didn’t even know that you could take books out of the library for free.”

    Like I said Clarissa, some of those things might not specifically apply to you. and you asked me to explain. I’m just saying that things balance out. you are right, this is going off on a tangent.

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  23. To tell the truth, I think that what Nancy wanted to say that in some countries, such as Italy, excellent schools are State schools so, in theory, everybody can go, do well and then go to the US or UK and end up with a good job. My husband has had various Harvard scholarships in the Classics Department and he comes from a working class family, but In Italy, if you are smart you go to the classical high school where you study Latin( from middle school) and Greek for 5yrs 6hours per week, and philosophy, history of art, maths and physics. And then , again university is very cheap and State-run. And it’s all free. US high schools, in comparison, are so bad that when I sent both my children to USA for an exchange, they were on the honor roll every month and they were treated as geniuses. Only extremely expensive schools can come near our high school, but then again, my daughter- in a very expensive Baltimore school where she had a scholarship- used to translate from Greek to English (not her 1st language) and got the better marks. My children were asked to study in the USA (Rice University and MIT) but we wanted then to come home. An European education is simply much better.
    In that respect, I would contestualise Nancy’ comments on emigrants having an easier time in the USA.
    alessandra

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    1. “An European education is simply much better.”

      -High school education maybe is better in SOME countries in Europe. College education and professional education? Absolutely not. The European students I have gotten through exchange programs know a boatload of facts. They memorize and regurgitate perfectly. But original thinking is harsh for them. In many European countries, the entire grade for the course depends on the final exam. That simply kills all original thought.

      My colleagues who got their graduate degrees in Spain, France, Great Britain and Germany (I’m talking about people in my field here) are not nearly on the same level as people who get their graduate degrees in the US and Canada. The freedom to choose the kind of research you like and the funding to pursue it are simply not there. They are drying up here, too. But in Europe, they were never there to begin with.

      At the same time, a university professor is not a figure of the same kind of prestige in Europe as it is in the US. European students have a tendency to treat me like I’m their servant, which I find to be shocking.

      This is why I believe that the higher education system (both undergrad and postgrad) are absolutely the best in the world in the US. And I don’t have any fake sense of patriotism, or anything. This is simply what I am convinced of on the basis of everything I see.

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  24. Well, in a good European university you will never get students who ignore the word “Fascism” like your students, for a start (maybe because we had it??). And they would refrain to picture an Argentinian woman as “typical”, or asking the questions that you report in your blog, shockingly naive-.To tell the truth, I have never met people who know so little, even of their country (USA), in my life. Regarding scholars, they can be overspecialized in their field but they simply lack the general knowledge of the context making them more exposed to crass mistakes. Especially in the Humanities, you get across some very embarrassing errors as soon as they get out from their very little specific field. Beside, I really doubt you can study literature if you ignore the history of (some) major literatures, art history or philosophy like most (even important) American scholars. But it’s true, they do know even the smallest details about their author. Concerning originality, you may be right: American scholars seem more original, maybe because they don’t feel the burden of knowledge on their shoulder so they feel much freer to express every kind of opinion (some good).
    “At the same time, a university professor is not a figure of the same kind of prestige in Europe as it is in the US” . , Actually, a Full Professor is a figure of great prestige, but in E urope we have ancient universities (XII century) where hierarchy is very Important. A full professor is more likely to gather more awe from students that younger lecturers or assistent professors that are generally very young and mix more with students.Anyway, when we were staying at Harvard, lots of my husband’s colleagues complain that their very rich students treat them like their daddy’s employees, and in Princeton is even worse..
    Yale had the honor of graduating George W: Bush in history, do you still think that American top colleges graduate the best students?

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    1. The students I was discussing during this entire semester are freshmen. This is the level of knowledge they come in with from their high schools. It is, however, not the kind of knowledge they graduate with. Teaching freshmen is extremely hard because their general knowledge is extremely lacking. But their initial level tells us nothing of the higher ed system in the US. It is a testament to the sorry state of secondary education.

      “do you still think that American top colleges graduate the best students”

      -I think you misunderstand my position. I have very intimate knowledge of both Ivy League schools and public universities in the US and I have blogged extensively about this issue. It would have never occurred to me to say that the Ivies graduate the best students. I was a student at an Ivy myself and taught at two Ivy universities. My opinion is that people who go there waste their money.

      “Actually, a Full Professor is a figure of great prestige, but in E urope we have ancient universities (XII century) where hierarchy is very Important.”

      -Just like at an American Ivy. That’s a system I hate and find extremely detrimental.

      “Regarding scholars, they can be overspecialized in their field but they simply lack the general knowledge of the context making them more exposed to crass mistakes. Especially in the Humanities, you get across some very embarrassing errors as soon as they get out from their very little specific field.”

      – I disagree. I still remember how a leading British scholar came to give a talk at my school and we discovered, to our horror, that he spoke almost no Spanish. Our field is Spanish literature, by the way. He read and taught everything in translation. Narrow specialization is actually quite impossible for anybody who has gone through a graduate system in the US. I, for example, had to

      a) demonstrate knowledge of Latin;
      b) demonstrate knowledge of French (or any other Romance language);
      d) do a Minor in another literature (Indian, in my case);
      e) take elective courses in another discipline (history, in my case)

      and that’s just to be admitted to the comprehensive exams. I was almost not admitted to my grad school because I speak too few languages. Apparently, English, Spanish, Russian, Ukrainian, French and a reading knowledge of Portuguese, Italian, Latin and some German was too negligible for my university.

      I have many defects but suffering from narrow specialization is definitely not one of them. I just gave a talk at a philosophy conference and nobody even realized I had no degree in philosophy.

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      1. To be honest, I never experienced any disrespect from my students at Yale and Cornell. The senior faculty and administrators were another story, of course.

        However, the way my European exchange students acted towards me was shocking to me. I really felt like a nursery school teacher with a bunch of petulant 3-year-olds. They were great, brilliant kids. they just had no idea that I needed to be treated with some sort of deference.

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  25. It’s odd because I’ve never gotten that from Europeans. From *faculty* from France and Spain, yes, but not from European students.

    Re education systems, college prep public high schools in western European countries teach a lot more than your typical US public high schools, yes. And they’re supposed to, too – that’s what the system is.

    But I found university studies – in Spain at least – a lot easier than in US. You essentially just read the main text and listen in class, then take the test at the end. No research or independent writing – or not nearly as much.

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    1. “But I found university studies – in Spain at least – a lot easier than in US. You essentially just read the main text and listen in class, then take the test at the end. No research or independent writing – or not nearly as much.”

      -Exactly. I really don’t get the system where the final exam decides everything. I need students to work every day in class. That matters a lot more than a final huge effort at memorization.

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